Damon Cooper
Welcome to Let's Ask Better Questions, the podcast where we discuss hot school topics for parents. I'm Damon Cooper, Director of Teaching and Learning at Central Coast Grammar School and around the table today we have Dr. Kristy Goodwin, an expert on the impact of technology on young children's health, learning and development and a mother of three. We also have Gavin Summers, Director of Innovative Learning and Digital Literacy at Central Coast Grammar School and a father of four, and Taylah, who's getting ready to move up to high school next year.
We’re here to talk about whether school children have too much technology or too little. Kristy, what do you think?
Kristy Goodwin
I think we're at this era, we're living in a tsunami of screens. Technology is now an integral part of our lives and obsessing over quantifying the amount of time that children and teenagers spend online is almost a redundant concept. Technology is now woven into so many facets of our lives. So, I really encourage parents to look beyond the how much question. I encourage parents to be the pilot and not the passenger of the digital plane.
As the pilot of the digital plane, parents need to set boundaries around not only how much time their children spend, but also more importantly, I believe, looking at what they're doing with their time on devices. Is it leisure? Is it learning? Is it supporting their wellbeing? Is it age appropriate, is it congruent with their developmental needs? So I think we really need to shift the conversation from quantifying screen-time as a metric and looking at having more nuanced, broader conversations, particularly around what they're doing with their time online, where they're using devices, having boundaries around the no-go tech zones at home, and also looking at how they're using them. Are they using them in ergonomically correct ways that won't compromise their health and wellbeing?
Damon Cooper
Gavin, as a teacher, a user of technology and a parent, what do you think?
Gavin Summers
I echo that. I think it's all about teaching the students, teaching children about how to self-assess. Some of the skills of self-awareness. "Well, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? Is it affecting me in any other way? Should I or could I be doing something else which is going to enrich my life more?" Parents need to be able to create those boundaries. But as children get older, like with any frame of life, they want to get more and more independent. So it's our job as teachers and parents to ensure that our children can self-assess what they are doing and the impact of what they are doing on their own lives and the lives of the community that's around them, the immediate community and the wider community.
Kristy Goodwin
I think that's so vital because empowering students to have a locus of control over their digital behaviours is paramount. Because as you alluded to, Gavin, we need students to start to self-regulate because technology will be such an integral component of their lives. And really empowering students, I believe, from the very early years of primary school, with a knowledge and understanding about what I call their digital wellbeing - how technology is impacting on their basic developmental needs and giving them strategies and science behind what their basic psychological and physiological needs are. And then making sure that technology is used in a way that supports those needs, not stifles them. I think we often underestimate the capabilities and skills that our children can possess if we upskill them and support them in that place.
I think most adults would admit that we feel tethered to technology. This is not a problem that any of us are immune to. I call it the digital pull. Technology meets our basic psychological drivers and it's also been designed to prey on some of our psychological weaknesses. Sometimes it's hard to switch off based on the way our brain works. Often, especially if we're using social media and it's a pleasurable experience for us, posting things on TikTok that are shared and liked, maybe it's an Instagram post that's quite popular, our brain releases dopamine and dopamine literally hijacks the part of the brain that would normally self-regulate. So, it's that impulse control centre that literally shuts off. So, our capacity to self-regulate is often impaired.
Gavin Summers
Taylah, as someone who uses it every day, what do you think?
Taylah
Well, I believe that at school we have an appropriate amount, but at home, I know that my family, we have a good amount. Before and after to school, it's monitored, and my parents are always aware of what we're doing online or on social media. But some families I know, they're on their phones as soon as they get home and as soon as they wake up. Their phone's next to their bedside table, straight away on social media, checking everything, looking at how much likes they may have on a post, who's commented on posts or TikToks, which is a very big popular app now that a lot of my friends use. But parents should monitor and limit the amount of time we're on them.
Damon Cooper
Whose responsibility is it to teach kids about quality screen-time, self-regulation and the dangers of using apps? Does that lie at school or at home or somewhere else?
Gavin Summers
I think it's a mixture of the two. It's definitely got to be a mixture of the two. Going back to what was just said, the modelling from parents. Myself as a parent, I find myself constantly thinking, "Am I modelling what I'm preaching, basically, to my children?" So, the best way to teach my children how to use technology outside of the classroom as a parent is to model that to them. It's such a powerful thing. If they see that you are on your phone constantly, then they're going to think that that's what people do. If they see that you can put that technology to one side for those community times, then that's also a really strong indication that children pick up on.
There's definitely a mixture between what you do as a parent and what we teach at school. School is a place where we prepare students for what they will face in the future. So, it's definitely a place where teachers should be teaching these types of skills, because if a student leaves the school and they haven't been exposed to how to self-regulate and how to use things appropriately, whatever the tool, then I think teachers need to be looking at what they're actually teaching when they're there.
Kristy Goodwin
Look, I completely agree. We need parents and educators to be singing from the same hymn sheet. We need the support from both parties. I think upskilling parents is crucial. So, many parents feel confused and concerned because unfortunately the media, the popular media, tends to demonise technology and kids. The popular media reports we hear are usually only about the negative consequences and the adverse effects of technology, so parents have a very tainted view of the impact of technology. They often feel ill equipped to navigate this at home. In parents’ defence, we are as parents today the very first generation of parents who are navigating this digital terrain and we're raising kids and teenagers, I call them screenagers, in a world where the young people know more about a concept than what their parents do. Parents naturally feel ill equipped to navigate this terrain. Their notion of school is very different too.
Gavin Summers
That kind of flips a little bit the idea of a parent and a child and who can teach who. Who's teaching who how to navigate life at the moment? But there's a fantastic opportunity there of using your child to upskill you. That teaches children everywhere that they have got something to offer right now that is going to enrich somebody else's life.
Kristy Goodwin
I often say to parents that your IT help desk at home is your five-year-old, so use them for your technical support. But the thing that kids and teenagers don't have is the brain architecture to often manage the technology just because of the way the brain is biologically wired. The prefrontal cortex that helps with our self-regulation skills, our higher order logical thinking skills, literally is not online. It's not developed. Your child will have the technical prowess. You've got the life experience and the brain architecture to help your child navigate this terrain, so you really are well-equipped to be the pilot of the digital plane.
Taylah
I believe the biggest point that parents need to promote to their children is that anytime you post or type, message something on a social media platform or online, it's there forever. It becomes a part of your digital footprint. That's the biggest thing I find with social media, online search engines, online games. Anytime you post something it's there forever. You can't get rid of it and people can use this against you in your later life when you're pitching for a job.
Kristy Goodwin
It's so critical Taylah. I use an alternative term instead. It's very much aligned to your digital footprint, but I talk about this idea of your digital DNA. Every post, every comment can be digitally archived and that can have long term consequences. That's hard for young people to really understand, both the magnitude and long-term consequences of what they're posting because again, the way their brain is wired, they're not thinking about long term repercussions. I worked with a young gentleman who was on the cusp of signing a very lucrative contract with a large sporting club and he was in his early 20s and he had a knock at the door from a policeman who had come around. And five years prior, he had distributed, digitally distributed, some inappropriate photos of his girlfriend at the time.
Now, this repercussion was five years after the event, and it ended up resulting in this young boy losing his lucrative sporting contract. So, for young people who are impulsive, who aren't thinking about career prospects often, this is really hard to convey, but real-life experience like that and what Taylah’s sharing is so important.
Damon Cooper
Gavin, how important is technology for learning and for life?
Gavin Summers
If you look at the type of careers that are around at the moment and maybe around in five- or 10-years’ time, the ability to use technology effectively is really important. So, at schools it's very important that we teach children how to utilise technology so that they're prepared for the workforce that they may go into in the future. The only way that we can do that is by really embedding the use of technology into what we do in the school and showing how it can be used effectively. Whether that's basic skills in particular things such as word processing or spreadsheet or data analysis, or going into each particular subject area and seeing well, if a student was really interested in this subject area and they were going for a career in this subject area, what are the particular skills that would be required for them to work effectively in this curriculum area?
So I think it is a massive thing within schools to ensure that you are properly upskilling and empowering students in not just basic skills, or not just IT skills, but the capability to have the critical thinking to think, "Well, these are the skills I know. This is the situation at hand. How can I apply those skills that I know in this situation for an effective outcome or a successful outcome?"
Damon Cooper
Thanks, Gavin. We also know that there can be a great joy in creation and one of the great powers of technologies is the ability to create, to allow us to do things, to find out new things. Taylah, can you tell us about a lesson that you've loved where technology has played a key part?
Taylah
Well, this is pretty recent. So only last week we started this. In Year 6 we are making a computer game that's based on a book called on One Small Island based on Macquarie Island. It's supposed to be an educational game that's going to inform people on the troubles and difficulties they're having over there with animals and wildlife. So, one of the Digital Technologies teachers is coming in (to our class) helping us code this game on a platform called Scratch.
Gavin Summers
I think that one of the great things is that you can implement those skills nice and early down in the kinder years. If you can implement those coding thoughts, of direction and programming and sequences of instructions, in those younger years and then gradually progress it as they work their way up to the top of the junior school or the middle school or senior college, then they get to these places where they're doing quite complex coding. Coding a computer game is not an easy thing, but hopefully Taylah is feeling confident and she obviously feels enthusiastic about what they're doing in the classroom. That's one of the things that I spoke about earlier - embedding that technology into what is happening in the classroom in a realistic, authentic way.
Damon Cooper
There's no doubt that technology is a powerful tool, but we know that with great power comes great responsibility. Kristy, what are the risks and how can we manage our digital health?
Kristy Goodwin
Look, there is plethora of risks depending on the age and stage of development of children, but I'm going to touch on what I see currently and what the research is indicating are probably the three greatest risks that span the primary and secondary grades. The biggest risk, and I think again, none of us as adults are immune to this, is digital distraction. Technology, if we're not in control of it, I often say if we're a slave to the screen, then our attention can be hijacked by technology. Deliberate design techniques like alerts and notifications, even the mere use of coloured notification bubbles with metrics specifically stating how many unread emails you have, literally have been designed to get us hooked on the technology and checking it.
I'm working with schools and corporate clients who are both saying that the capacity to manage our attention is going to be the most essential 21st century skill. Whether I'm talking to students or to adults, it’s about putting a fortress around our focus, learning strategies so that we can leverage the benefits, the incredible benefits that technology poses, at the same time minimising those risks. So, I think the first thing is managing our attention.
That's the biggest threat.
The second thing that I think that technology is perhaps displacing is our fundamental psychological need. As humans, we have the most basic need and that is our need for relational connection. If we're not careful, if technology is being used excessively, inappropriately or at the wrong times of the day, it really can impact on our human relationships - those micro moments of connection between children and their parents, the real social connections that kids have with games in the playground. So again, if we're not putting boundaries in place and we're not cognisant of how we're using the technology, I'm worried that technology can perhaps impact our relationships.
The third area that I'm seeing a significant impact, in regard technology, is the impact on sleep. We think that this is one of the contributing, certainly not the only reason, why we are seeing the increase in mental health issues in young people. We're often quick to blame smart phones and social media and there have been some well-known studies that are suggesting that this is the root cause. But the studies at hand only show correlation. We do not have the research that proves causation. I think it's the time on technology that's displacing the time available for sleep and also the delayed onset of sleep, which is a really big impact because many young people will admit, and adults too, that they're scrolling before they go to sleep. And having devices in bedrooms is also having a huge impact on not only the quantity of sleep but also the quality of sleep.
So, they're my three. Digital distraction, relationships and sleep.
Taylah
An interesting thing I found out in class the other day, when we had to make refugee welcome packs online, was that on a chart of basic human needs, it had things like shelter, food, water and beds. But an interesting thing that's been implemented into that chart is that now Wi-Fi and technology are on the chart along with the very basic needs.
Damon Cooper
The connected world brings with it its own unique set of risks, distinct perhaps from some other aspects of technology. How can we teach kids to stay safe online? Gavin?
Gavin Summers
Again, in schools, it's about implementing programs which can guide students into what is appropriate and what is inappropriate and what are some of the risks that you will come up against and how to handle those risks. It's really important that we're not just there saying, "These are the dangers of being online." We need to make sure that we are equipping them to understand when that may be happening very early on and then what they should do about it. So again, there are programs out there that can be implemented in schools, which are evidence-based, that will upskill students into how to handle these issues and how to notice when they're actually happening.
Kristy Goodwin
I think the onus is also on, again, equipping parents with the knowledge base to help their kids navigate this in home territory. We know that a lot of online incidents are often happening at home. Schools’ use of technology is fairly regimented. It's fairly educational and there are usually very strong filtering tools in place that will stop any unsavoury content being consumed or children being exposed to it. But in the home context, it's really about parents having open and ongoing conversations. From the minute you hand your toddler a device, it's about having those ongoing discussions and teaching them about these skills.
One of the really critical things that's often a surprise to parents is I really strongly discourage parents using technology as a punishment tool or as a reward tool. What we know is that in most cases of children being approached by a predator or being a victim of cyber bullying, if there is any perceived threat of what I call digital amputation, our kids will never come to us when they're facing a digital issue. So, we really want to use technology as a tool, as a functional tool, but not using it as a sort of digital carrot or digital stick, and that can make a really big impact on kids.
Gavin Summers
There are great opportunities when children are young as well to model those types of things. Even the sharing of personal data can very easily be modelled with younger children who are taking their first steps into playing online games - "Well, do you really think that should be your gamer tag? Don't have your name in your gamer tag. Let's think of something else that can represent you, which isn't giving your information across so people don't know your name." Then also when they take their first steps into social media, “Well, let's keep a lot of this personal data off your profile so that you're not putting yourself into opportunities for people to make unwanted contact.”
Kristy Goodwin
Again, equipping parents with the skills to know how to navigate this at home. Some really simple boundaries around where technology is used. Your child is much less likely to encounter unsavoury content or be a victim of bullying if technology is used in publicly accessible spot. Children are very unlikely to be sending nudes when they're lying on the couch next to you at the kitchen counter, hopefully. The other thing is also minimising their use at night. We know that most cyber bullying happens and online predators approach young people at night, and part of that is because of access. But the other part is because of the way the brain is wired and at night the logical smart part of the brain that's basically the CEO or the air traffic control system, it turns off. It gets worn out, it powers down for the night and the part of the brain that’s called the amygdala, which is the emotional part of the brain, fires up. This is a really diabolical combination because we've got the logical brain off and the emotional brain on. So, knowing just how the brain works and how young people are wired, I think it gives parents the knowledge about why they play a critical role in enforcing those boundaries.
Gavin Summers
If you can teach those critical consumption skills in a topic such as history, so how can we look at information and make sure that we're not just passively consuming something. We need to be able to critically analyse what we're looking at, different sides of a story, different perspectives, how it's promoted, whether there's propaganda type things in there. And then take that into a classroom setting where you then have to try and persuade somebody about a particular argument. I mean those types of things are really powerful. Technology really enhances that experience there without actually teaching technology. But then from those skills that you've learned in that, let’s say it's a history class, you can then use that in your own life - when you are just passively scrolling on Facebook or Twitter and reading these tweets or Facebook posts which are meant to evoke certain emotions in you, you can say, "Well, what perspective am I looking at this app from and are there other sides of this story?" So, you can take that passive consumption and develop it into critical consumption.
Taylah
A lot of things that children get caught up in on social media platforms especially, is how many likes, how many views, how many comments they have. If they don't have a certain amount, which they think is good enough, then it's bad for their self-esteem. But parents need to educate them that it's ... the digital world is like our second world. It's better to be talking face to face than texting and we've got to understand this, that digital technology will always be there, but we can't forget about our daily life, our social life face to face, talking to people at school.
Gavin Summers
I think that's really important as well. When you're talking about how technology can be used in the classroom, it's not just basic substitution. That we're not just looking at students who are sat looking at a laptop on a one-on-one situation where they're not looking at their peers, they're not communicating with their peers. It's more about being creative and making sure that the students are using that in realistic ways.
Damon Cooper
The world of technology is evolving so rapidly and we totally understand that parents are trying to keep up with that. How is it that teachers and schools are staying ahead of that to provide the best, most intentional use of technology and support their kids to use it properly?
Gavin Summers
I think support for staff is very important just as it is with students. You've got to think about, well what is your actual intent? Are we just putting devices in students' hands for the sake of putting devices in students' hands? Or are we doing it in order to upskill them and empower them? You've got to have a program which goes from the beginning of the journey all the way through to the end of the journey and know exactly what it is that you're trying to develop. We need to develop those core skills and capabilities of using pieces of software and using particular pieces of skills within that software that are going to be useful when students move out into the greater world. Data analysis is a massive topic at the moment. There's a lot of talk saying that that's where careers are going to be in the future, if you've got an understanding of data. But you have to make sure that those skills are developed from a very early age.
Damon Cooper
For the parents who are listening that might be a bit uncertain about supporting their children in what Taylah called their second world, what are three concrete things that we can do to help and support our children?
Kristy Goodwin
I'm going to say as the pilot of the digital plane, you've got to get the three B's right. The first thing, and I think we've touched on this intermittently throughout this conversation, is you've got to have boundaries in consultation with your child. Boundaries around beyond just the how much. I hopefully convinced you that's a redundant thing just to look at. But instead looking at what they're doing online, when they're using it, where they're using it, how and with whom. Know the digital playgrounds your child's playing in and then have ongoing conversations where you can use the technology with them. So, first and foremost, having boundaries.
The second B that we've got to make sure of as parents is that we protect their basic needs. Making sure that technology isn't encroaching on their sleep, their physical movement, their opportunities for play, for relationships and language.
And the third B - and I know this seems counterintuitive in the digital age – is that we have to promote boredom. Our brains were never designed to be switched on processing information all of the time. We need to carve out opportunities for boredom. This is when we come up with creative ideas or we solve problems that we've spent months agonising over. Neuroscientists call it the default mode of thinking and we need opportunities to have space, white space, to be bored. So, boundaries, basic needs and boredom.
Gavin Summers
Number one for me would be talk to your children about what they're doing, get involved in what they're doing. If they're using technology at school to create something, then ask them to show you how they did it and what they've done.
Number two would be to model that. There's a great opportunity using technology to show a growth mindset. There are so many resources out there for technology where you can enhance your own understanding of pretty much whatever you are interested in. Whether you want to learn how to play the piano or whether you want to paint a picture, whether you want to get good at coding, you can use technology to do that. So, if you can model that.
The third one, a subset of modelling, is showing them how you are using technology. So, “I’m using this to pay my bills at the moment,” or “I'm using this to communicate with work. I need to send an email here,” or “I'm using this passively. I'm just watching TV at the moment.” Just modelling to them the different ways that you can use technology and hopefully that will help them understand how they could use technology effectively.
Damon Cooper
What practical resources are available for parents who want to know a bit more. Kristy?
Kristy Goodwin
My two favourites that I recommend: first of all, the eSafety Commissioner's website here in Australia. It's got a parent portal and you can find out - if you've got no idea what Snapchat is and your daughter in Year 4 is telling you she's the only girl in the whole world that doesn't have a Snapchat account - you can go to the eSafety Commissioner's website and find out if it’s age appropriate and what some of the risks and benefits of that platform are.
My second go to resource, and ironically these are both online, is Common Sense Media. They're a non-profit organization in the U.S that review apps, websites, television shows. So, when your eight-year-old son's in the EB game store telling you that the latest R-rated game is suitable for him, you can pull up this tool and find an age appropriate alternative that he might be happy to purchase.
Gavin Summers
The office of the eSafety Commissioner has put a lot of effort into making a resource that is available for everyone, whether you're a child, whether you're a parent, whether you're a teacher. There are resources on there which you can take immediately and start implementing. Common Sense Media is just fantastic for those type of parenting questions, "Well, is this appropriate for me?"
Damon Cooper
Thank you very much for your time today, Kristy, Gavin and Taylah, and thank you for listening to this episode of Let's Ask Better Questions. You can find some links to the resources we've mentioned on the website and never miss an episode by subscribing, or by heading to our website at ccgs.nsw.edu.au.